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1965 Jeep J20 Gladiator Build

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  • #16
    I know it may seem backwards to some of you that my second post in a build thread for a complete frame swap/Cummins Repower was about an air filter, but the devil is in the details with any build.

    I've seen many guys do a great job and then once they are almost done, then they slap on whatever air filter they can get their hands on for the test drive thinking they'll make it better next time... and that never comes around. We all spend a lot of time and money on our rigs to make them more capable than they were ever imagined to be from the factory. Why cut corners on something that could kill the whole thing?

    Air filters come in all different shapes, sizes, filter capacities, flow rates etc - turbo diesels require very specific filter performance so I wanted to find an off-the-shelf Cummins filter that would work for this build that I knew was proven compatible and met all the Cummins engineering standards/tests. Turbos suck. The more dust you let it eat, the less efficient they'll become. Have a look at your turbo to see if there is a cone of dust building up on the nut for the compressor wheel. If so, you need a better intake setup ASAP! Turbos can suck a LOT of air. The filter has to be able to not only keep the finest dust out, but let the right about of air through so it can spool up and build boost.

    Working for Cummins, I am fortunate enough to have direct access to people much smarter than I. I talked to my friends over at Cummins Filtration (Fleetguard) to figure out if I could actually run the OptiAir 800 series with both elements for extra protection and they confirmed that I could. Once they helped me confirm my part numbers, it was go time!.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	Filtration Christmas.jpg Views:	0 Size:	1.90 MB ID:	2795

    Parts showed up today and I did a quick Christmas morning so I could hold the parts up where I'm thinking of mounting it. My plan is to use the real estate previously occupied by the heater core and blower motor since that is all moving under the dash with the VintageAir setup (including AC!). Initial thought is to mount it to the firewall with a second option of having it run parallel to the engine and fender mounted (which would likely require carving into my inner fender a bit and potentially relocating battery)

    I can clock the inlet and what's shown is default. The inlet location to the filter is important too. It needs to have access to fresh, preferably dry, cool, air. Many factory applications pull from behind headlights or inner fenders, some through venting in the hoods with water separators. The worst thing you can do to an engine is feed it hot engine bay air. That is making your entire cooling package have to work overtime. Cool, dense air is what you want for the best all around performance.

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    Here are the other accessories in addition to the primary filter and housing AH19261:

    1) Secondary Filter Element AF25961
    2) Air Filter Bracket 3918197S
    3) J1939 Air Filter Monitor SK15960

    These are all available through any Cummins dealer.

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    Last edited by Sanders; 04-30-2021, 07:07 PM.

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    • #17
      Great informational post. I see lots of builds, gas and diesel, with basic cone filters under the hood.

      I'm only a little jealous you can fit that massive filter under the hood.

      Comment


      • #18
        Yes - I am quite happy to have all of the room I have under the hood of this one so I plan to use it!

        For my disco, I'm using the factory air box and filter which has driven me a bit nuts to not know the exact filter specs. Happy I'm pulling cool fender air and the box has a pre-cleaner, but then my plumbing wraps around from the front corner of the driver's side around behind the engine and into the turbo.

        I rushed that install because I was working between a broken leg recovery and leaving for Cummins Cruise. Once this truck is done, I'd really like to yank the engine back out of the Rover and do things the way I wish I would have the first time. Now QuickDraw has a flywheel housing for the GM transmissions that would save me a few inches to slide the engine back and make more room for a cleaner cooling fan install. My engine stays cool just fine but the trimmed taurus fan isn't the way I wanted to go. I've not made my AC lines for the Rover because I keep telling myself I'm going to pull the engine soon to clean it all up

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Sanders View Post
          I know it may seem backwards to some of you that my second post in a build thread for a complete frame swap/Cummins Repower was about an air filter, but the devil is in the details with any build.

          I've seen many guys do a great job and then once they are almost done, then they slap on whatever air filter they can get their hands on for the test drive thinking they'll make it better next time... and that never comes around. We all spend a lot of time and money on our rigs to make them more capable than they were ever imagined to be from the factory. Why cut corners on something that could kill the whole thing?

          Air filters come in all different shapes, sizes, filter capacities, flow rates etc - turbo diesels require very specific filter performance so I wanted to find an off-the-shelf Cummins filter that would work for this build that I knew was proven compatible and met all the Cummins engineering standards/tests. Turbos suck. The more dust you let it eat, the less efficient they'll become. Have a look at your turbo to see if there is a cone of dust building up on the nut for the compressor wheel. If so, you need a better intake setup ASAP! Turbos can suck a LOT of air. The filter has to be able to not only keep the finest dust out, but let the right about of air through so it can spool up and build boost.

          Working for Cummins, I am fortunate enough to have direct access to people much smarter than I. I talked to my friends over at Cummins Filtration (Fleetguard) to figure out if I could actually run the OptiAir 800 series with both elements for extra protection and they confirmed that I could. Once they helped me confirm my part numbers, it was go time!.

          Click image for larger version Name:	Filtration Christmas.jpg Views:	0 Size:	1.90 MB ID:	2795

          Parts showed up today and I did a quick Christmas morning so I could hold the parts up where I'm thinking of mounting it. My plan is to use the real estate previously occupied by the heater core and blower motor since that is all moving under the dash with the VintageAir setup (including AC!). Initial thought is to mount it to the firewall with a second option of having it run parallel to the engine and fender mounted (which would likely require carving into my inner fender a bit and potentially relocating battery)

          I can clock the inlet and what's shown is default. The inlet location to the filter is important too. It needs to have access to fresh, preferably dry, cool, air. Many factory applications pull from behind headlights or inner fenders, some through venting in the hoods with water separators. The worst thing you can do to an engine is feed it hot engine bay air. That is making your entire cooling package have to work overtime. Cool, dense air is what you want for the best all around performance.

          Click image for larger version Name:	Firewall2.jpg Views:	0 Size:	1.85 MB ID:	2796

          Here are the other accessories in addition to the primary filter and housing AH19261:

          1) Secondary Filter Element AF25961
          2) Air Filter Bracket 3918197S
          3) J1939 Air Filter Monitor SK15960

          These are all available through any Cummins dealer.

          Click image for larger version Name:	Bracket2.jpg Views:	0 Size:	1.98 MB ID:	2797Click image for larger version Name:	Secondary Filter.jpg Views:	0 Size:	2.10 MB ID:	2798Click image for larger version Name:	Digital Pressure Monitor.jpg Views:	0 Size:	2.47 MB ID:	2799
          How does the air filter monitor work? Simply plug into CAN network? Im currently rebuilding my Defender and want to convert to an OptiAir setup also for proper filtration. Thanks for all you're sharing with the community.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by 13diamonds View Post

            How does the air filter monitor work? Simply plug into CAN network? Im currently rebuilding my Defender and want to convert to an OptiAir setup also for proper filtration. Thanks for all you're sharing with the community.
            TBD - In looking at our tech papers on the ECM, I don't see this message support on the CM2220 or a pin for it so I may have to get creative. Worst case, I'll go old school on the filter minder because I don't mind the look of them anyway.

            Comment


            • #21
              .......awaiting floor pans and rockers to get moving on my cab. Fingers crossed they arrive soon. The good news is that my wife is already sick of the truck bed and front clip in the driveway so she's encouraging me to hurry up. I am interpreting that as green light to spend money. I also explained to her what a new Gladiator costs.

              Comment


              • #22
                Would the direct flow filter systems work for those of us with tighter space constraints? Would the dealers have some of the specs as far as sizing as I didn't see any on the bulletins I looked at?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by BrdHntn View Post
                  Would the direct flow filter systems work for those of us with tighter space constraints? Would the dealers have some of the specs as far as sizing as I didn't see any on the bulletins I looked at?
                  I just looked through their online PDF catalogs and found the ones that met the CFM requirement and then you can see the measurements from there: https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/literature/air

                  Comment


                  • #24
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                    Change of plans! I've spent what little free time I've had the past few months planning for a fall/winter sprint on the truck. As luck would have it, one of my original ideas came back into play when I found a great deal on a JKU frame and had an offer I couldn't refuse from a buddy to help me stretch it 4". I hope to have the frame in my garage next week from the 2013 donor. The frames are unbelievably similar in overall dimension. I used the rear cab mount of the J truck an the body mount under the B pillar of the JK as a datum. From there, the front axle on both is 69.5" forward of that point. I'll obviously have to make bed mounts and modify the dog house mounts on the front but my plan is to keep the suspension setup to accept any JK axles/lift kits etc.

                    The donor comes with a toasty front Dana 30 that would require a rebuild to use but it'll help me position the front wheel well/cab. A rear JK D44 is around $800-1,200 which seems crazy so I may still use the older axles I was planning to use on the '76 frame. I would use Artec Industries bracket kit for the rear to retain the JK rear suspension and perhaps modify one of their D60 front axle kits to fit my D44 front. Alternatively, I'm keeping an eye out for a good deal on 99-04 Ford Super Dirty D60's which they have kits for and by the time I convert my rear to disc brakes and figure out the front, I would likely be money ahead to wait.

                    So now the focus will shift to getting the frame here and the cab positioned. Once it's positioned, I'll rebuild the floor and the hat channel to align with four of the JKU body mounts. Then I can get my engine set and starting working on firewall/floor modifications.

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                    JKU Donor
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                    Last edited by Sanders; 08-19-2021, 02:17 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sanders View Post
                      Hello!

                      I've been MIA since getting sick in March but I'm about ready to tear into my second home-built R2.8 build - a '65 Jeep Gladiator J-200. My Disco is still my daily driver and family machine but I need a pickup truck too and plan to use it for a solo road tripper once work travel is allowed again. I want it to be very road friendly at any speed but also very offroad capable and utilitarian. I've had the great fortune to participate in 3 Ultimate Adventures and learn about practical build practices to a make a well rounded rig and plan to implement here.

                      I've been procuring parts and as soon as my CJ7 sells to free up my garage, I'll get to work. The truck was from a barn in Mississippi and is very solid but needs rockers and some other small patches here and there. It currently has the stock I6 230ci Tornado OHC engine, 3 speed manual, closed knuckle 44's and 120" wheel base. I've got it pressure washed and 'driving' under its original power but soon the body will come off and the original rolling chassis will keep on going down the road.

                      Here is the breakdown of the plan:
                      • Powertrain: Keep it simple - R2.8 Turbo Diesel with QuickDraw AX15 setup mated to an Advanced Adapters ATLAS II transfer case.
                      • Axles: I scored some really good 1979 Ford F250 axles which are HP Dana 44 front with the big brakes and Dana 60 rear that match the factory width of the wide track J-truck axles. They are 8 lug. Gearing TBD (I believe they are 3.55's but could be 4.10 - Once tire size is picked based on suspension/ride height, i'll address gearing)
                      • Frame: I have a 1976 donor J-10 with the newer style frame/steering/suspension that I'll shorten to the 120" wheelbase and finish ahead of the body swap. CHANGE OF PLANS: 2013 JKU Frame
                      • Body: I plan to repair the rockers and any other pinholes on the cab so that I can get the cab sealed and finished on the interior. I hope to blend the patina and keep looking weathered but we'll see when I get there. Plan B would be to do a fresh coat of the implement red.
                      • Suspension: The original '65 frame has outboard SOA front springs which combined with the closed knuckle 44's means horrible turning radius. Going to the 76' frame, the springs are under the frame rails and sprung under. The HP Dana 44 is already set up for the '76 frame width and SOA so I plan to keep that set up and run some flatter springs. I'll match the rear to where ever the front lands. It too is sprung over.
                      • Wheels/Tires: I am loving my Kenda RT's on my R2.8 Land Rover so would like to see if I can find the right combination of factoring looking 8 lug steel wheel (white) and something around the 35" diameter depending on final ride height.
                      • Interior: Keep it classic looking but sound proof as much as possible, modern heating/air conversion, shoulder belts and figure out a headrest solution as I plan to log a ton of interstate miles in this thing.
                      • Wiring: I've used a Kwik Wire vehicle harness on another project and it was good quality and value. Unless you have other suggestions, I'll probably go that route again.
                      • Cooling: Factory radiator, CAC tbd, mechanical fan. Either Jeep 4.0 ZJ HD setup or would love to figure out electric fan clutch setup.
                      • Air Filtration: Since i have the room, I plan on using a big Cummins Fleetguard setup - more to come on that.

                      Stay tuned!

                      -Steve

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                      Man that is a cool old truck!!!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Progress! I borrowed a buddy's trailer (thank you) and some of my brother's garage space (huge thank you) to move the bed and doors out of my way in my small garage that's already packed with kids toys and other junk. I drove down to Louisville, KY with the trailer and picked up my 'new' frame. I was stoked to see that in addition to the crispy front axle they left me, they left a steering box core and the body mounts. This will help me in mocking everything up.

                        Side note on my R2.8 Land Rover - This was my first time towing with it so I was a bit curious what the 6L80e transmission tune would do. It behaved well and I can only assume the trans wasn't getting too hot (need a gauge) but based on the engine never going north of 194*, I assumed the trans was fine. I learned that my ~100" wheelbase R2.8 rover is in need of some new panhard bar bushings but other than that, it tows like a champ! I had to order the trailer wiring harness from Atlantic British for this adventure but now I have it and now I know the transmission tune is good for towing. If anyone else is running the ZeroGravity/PCS 6L80e, let me know if you've done anything for trans temp monitoring/fan control. I have some ideas.

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                        Last edited by Sanders; 09-02-2021, 03:37 AM.

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                        • R2.8Samauri
                          R2.8Samauri commented
                          Editing a comment
                          I have a b&m pan with a port for a temp sensor in the pan. https://www.holley.com/products/driv...gm/parts/70391
                          It was enough additional transmission cooling until I covered it with a skid plate. I added a cooler inline with the radiator that has fixed my high trans temp issues. I would have never know it was an issue without the temp sensor.

                      • #27
                        Cab Placement

                        Last night I couldn't wait to unload my frame and get it staged in the garage. My buddies Floor Jack, Cherry Picker, and some random wheel/chassis dollies helped me get it down and up the slope into the garage. Probably comical for anyone watching. For now, I have it sitting low with the suspension fully compressed.

                        Once I had it in, I couldn't contain myself and had to set the cab on. I took a best guess but knew I needed to throw a fender on to be sure. I want to locate the cab before I try to hang the engine in for mount builds.

                        Today, with the help of my 3 year old son, we removed a fender from the front clip that's been sitting in the driveway as art. I hung it to to see how close I was and think that I need to move the cab forward ~2". I'm going to raise the frame up and cycle the suspension to see how forward it would be if I had stock - 2.5" lift springs and try to best center the wheel arch with that in mind. All that will determine how much frame stretch we do out back as well.

                        The hat channels on the cab align almost perfectly with the JK frame rails. My plan is to retain the stock location of the JK body mounts for the cab and modify the floorboard since I have to replace them anyway. Of the entire project, I'm dreading the cab sheet metal work the most. I need to change my attitude about it and just dig in. Once the cab is mounted, I'll feel a lot better!

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                        Last edited by Sanders; 09-02-2021, 03:41 AM.

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                        • RePowerToy
                          RePowerToy commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Fits very well it looks?

                      • #28
                        I went and picked up my engine today. I received it over a year ago and today was the first time I've ever seen it! I had it shipped to a buddy's warehouse who has a forklift and with my small garage, needed to keep it there as long as possible. Hopefully there is still some warranty on it by the time I start it!
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                        I had to swing it over the engine bay just because it's finally all coming together. I need to remove the JK engine mounts, temporarily remove steering box, and temporarily remove my remote oil filter housing before I can really set it down in the rails.
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                        For those of you who are working at home with an engine hoist, there are few things more frustrating than a palletized engine. I get that and I'm sorry! One easy trick I did is to suspend the engine and pallet, remove pallet, reuse brackets and mount them on some 2x4's. I used the flywheel housing wood support on the back and a wood piece across the front. This makes a nice stable storage stand that fits between the cherry picker feet and doesn’t take up the floor space of a skid in your garage. If I were really cool I'd put some casters on it but I'm not.
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                        Needless to say, it was very exciting for me and the boys to open it up. It always gives me a major sense of pride to see these engines arriving at their new homes and reminds me how fortunate we are to have the luxury of hobbies like these. So much work by so many people I care about went into making Cummins Repower a reality - lifting the top off and seeing that crate and kit gave me an overwhelming feeling of gratitude for all that they did to help me turn my dream into a real program. HUGE thanks to my OG's from the program launch team!

                        Last edited by Sanders; 09-02-2021, 03:45 AM.

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                        • #29
                          That's going to be another really cool build...I do really like the/my R2.8, but I can't shake wanting the ISF 3.8 for a Jeep truck build I'd like to complete. Not sure if you all are planning any packages, especially for pre-OBD II stuff (I know the EPA is hard to deal with just for starters). I'm really wanting something in mid 400 ft lb range, even if it needs a modest tune (I wouldn't be against 500 ft lbs), as I want to do a bit more towing.

                          From my experience with the smaller turbo diesel displacement engines vs the larger displacement diesel engines, the large displacement diesels don't have the drop off before the turbo kicks in like the smaller displacement engines have. I think the R2.8 with a bit higher axle ratio like 4.55s with 33's or 35s with a tune to get to the 360 ft lb mark would be completely adequate, but it's not a trivial purchase either and I'd rather have more engine just in case.

                          I had actually planned to just buy another truck, but with the price of new trucks and even used trucks, it's hard to not just purchase everything I would ever want in a truck and put it together for less than what the new trucks cost. If you all are able to legally continue, it looks like there's a massive market open for these custom builds, especially with how much maintenance and problems and cost we've been seeing at work. I worry that too many will find this loophole and it will be shut down.

                          I've worked with smaller trucking and courier services that have been moving to custom builds and they've been getting more pressure where they aren't able to continue. But we've had guys that it's their living and $60k vs $30k with less maintenance, more reliable, easier maintenance, longer life and better MPG is a really big deal to them, just by combining known and solid products that the OEMs aren't allowed or incentivized to use.

                          For me it's a hobby to a point, but everything in my life keeps getting bigger and heavier and more towing is always needed and these diesels are just so much better for doing work or just running into town or on a trail. And I can't help but drive my wife's Tacoma with the 4.0L V6 and just feel how little torque it has and then I have to stop so often at the gas station. The R2.8 in that truck wouldn't make it a hot-rod, but it would certainly make it perform more like a truck IMO should (though I still wish every truck or 4x4 pulled like a 6BT powered truck).

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                          • #30
                            I found a deal on a rebuilt AX15 from a fellow FSJ'r that was building a Willy's Wagon and sold the project to jump on a Chief that was going to suit the family better. He was even nice enough to meet me halfway both on price and travel! One of the best parts of building these things is the people you meet along the way while your'e buying/selling parts.

                            He had painted it OD green to match his build which provides a good contrast from the factory 4.0L bell housing and showcasing the piece of art from QuickDraw that I FINALLY unpacked. I had been debating on the awesome Tremec which is why I had been so disciplined about opening my adapter box. Chad at QuickDraw was willing to exchange without hassle if I opted for the premium route. I may upgrade one day when I save up my monies but for now to keep the project moving a nice AX15 will do the trick. Right now, I'm planning to get rolling on JK axles geared to 4.11's most likely and on 35's so the AX15 will be perfect.
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                            The QuickDraw bell housing is simply put, magnificent. The cast aluminum housing is beefier than the 4.0 housing and significantly shorter which can make a huge different for short wheelbase vehicles or when trying to run a clutched mechanical fan. Also included is a Cummins flywheel with a 4.0 clutch bolt pattern drilled into it and the proper pilot bearing already pressed in place. The icing on the cake is that the hardware for bolting to the engine, as well as a new clutch fork were also included. For sprinkles, my kit also came with branded swag including a decal, LED flashlight (WITH BATTERIES!) and a pen.

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                            The 'simplicity' of this adapter approach is right in line with what I want for the theme of this build - straight forward, utilitarian, and functional with a factory feel.

                            I can't wait to hang my Advance Adapters ATLAS II t-case on the back, but back to being disciplined and waiting until I'm ready for that step!
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                            Last edited by Sanders; 09-10-2021, 03:00 AM.

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